Weren't you a fetus once?
Its been a couple of weeks since I've have written a blog. Been busy I guess, that's always a good excuse. My wife will be 21 weeks pregnant with twins tomorrow, and having suffered a triplet loss last year we are obviously biting nails until these baby's are viable. I am not the type to post my misery for others to see, and I'm certainly not looking for pity. The reason that I tell is because through my own experiences, I have switched from pro-choice to pro-life. You can say "well, look at what this guy has been through, of course he is pro-life". Trust me I am no die hard conservative. Its just that I realized that when people are pro-choice, its really about a lack of experience in dealing with preserving life. The arguments I hear just don't stand up. There's the old "Pro-lifers are infringing on peoples right to choose". Rape is a choice, a mother murdering her own 2 year old baby is a choice. So is it really about choice? Choice is wonderful, until your choices infringe on someone else's freedom. Then there is "its her body, you cant tell her what to do with it". To people that believe this, you need to see an ultrasound. I can assure you it is not her body at issue. There are two separate body's, one just happens to live inside the others. The one inside has all body parts in just a matter of weeks. Including a brain, pumping heart(6 weeks) and every other part you or I have. All of the arguments just don't hold ground. A lot of people are pro-choice because they think it is the intelligent people who are pro-choice. After all the liberals are more educated. Doctors perform abortions, and who is more intellegent than a doctor?
People kill these baby's every day. Each and every one is wanted by someone. If you know someone who has had an abortion, ask them if they regret it. Just ask Norma McCorvey, Norma was Jane Roe in Roe vs. Wade in 1973. Norma now leads an anti-abortion organization. Before you brush it all off and stick to being pro-choice. Ask you self, what is murder.? If you say that killing a two year old toddler is murder, but abortion is not. Then you are saying that birth is where life begins. And if you think birth is where life begins, then you need a biology lesson. Not from a church, I'm not arguing from any religious prospective. I mean a science biology lesson. Life does not start at birth. A mother taking care of a baby in her womb is no different than a mother taking care of her toddler in her house. Except the ice cream and pickle part. By the way, my twins that are expected in November are kicking up a storm every night now. If you don't think they are people yet, you haven't felt my wife's belly. I cant wait to meet them.
The issue of abortion can get very complicated. Trust me, I don't believe its all black and white. It can get very complicated in high risk multiple pregnancies. To see what I mean, check out this web page - http://hygeia.org/poems20.htm
I guess what made me pro-choice before was really a lack of thought and understanding of the subject. I always want the most freedom that a person can have, and the most choice to do what I want. We should have the right to be free in every way, until it hurts another human. Nobody would argue that murder should be legal. Its absurd. Murder is taking someones life. There are however, people that don't know what defines life.
People kill these baby's every day. Each and every one is wanted by someone. If you know someone who has had an abortion, ask them if they regret it. Just ask Norma McCorvey, Norma was Jane Roe in Roe vs. Wade in 1973. Norma now leads an anti-abortion organization. Before you brush it all off and stick to being pro-choice. Ask you self, what is murder.? If you say that killing a two year old toddler is murder, but abortion is not. Then you are saying that birth is where life begins. And if you think birth is where life begins, then you need a biology lesson. Not from a church, I'm not arguing from any religious prospective. I mean a science biology lesson. Life does not start at birth. A mother taking care of a baby in her womb is no different than a mother taking care of her toddler in her house. Except the ice cream and pickle part. By the way, my twins that are expected in November are kicking up a storm every night now. If you don't think they are people yet, you haven't felt my wife's belly. I cant wait to meet them.
The issue of abortion can get very complicated. Trust me, I don't believe its all black and white. It can get very complicated in high risk multiple pregnancies. To see what I mean, check out this web page - http://hygeia.org/poems20.htm
I guess what made me pro-choice before was really a lack of thought and understanding of the subject. I always want the most freedom that a person can have, and the most choice to do what I want. We should have the right to be free in every way, until it hurts another human. Nobody would argue that murder should be legal. Its absurd. Murder is taking someones life. There are however, people that don't know what defines life.
posted by Jim Fisher at 10:21 AM
11 Comments:
Jim,
“There are however, people that don't know what defines life. … I'm not arguing from any religious prospective.”
I enjoyed your Blog. I agree with some of your conclusions. In order for you to come to these conclusions you are simply being inconsistent with your own worldview, which seems to be the modern scientific philosophies and humanism that determines what is morally right.
You say the above, but then you come to a conclusion on human worth based on a Christian worldview. In other words, you borrow and assume my worldview without ever expressing it. But all the while you say you are not doing so. Here is what I mean.
“Choice is wonderful, until your choices infringe on someone else's freedom. Then there is "its her body, you cant tell her what to do with it".”
How does a non-religious worldview or philosophy explain that it is wrong to use your freedom to hurt someone else? You speak of murder in your Blog. Who says murder is wrong? You? If not the Christian God, then how can you remain consistent with your conclusions? Simply asserting this begs the question.
A famous Pro-Choice argument argues that it is wrong for a woman to have to have her body invaded by someone else. So, some Pro-choice philosophers do not deny your argument that there are two people. Your answer would be inconsistent and if you changed your assumption to a real humanistic philosophy, you would not be able to defeat them at all.
“Its just that I realized that when people are pro-choice, its really about a lack of experience in dealing with preserving life.”
Experience is a great teacher, but it is a bad way to build a case for morality. Truth is truth and truth should judge our experience, not the other way around.
“The arguments I hear just don't stand up.”
You are right. Pro-choice arguments do not stand up. The reason they do not stand up is because they borrow from my Christian worldview whenever it is convenient in order to determine a morally superior position. The problem is, they pick and choose when they will do this, hence they look smart.
Only by being consistent in the Christian worldview can morality be truly determined and our experiences, such as yours, be seen for what they truly were.
There is a great debate on the Salt & Light page where Greg Bahnsen blows out of the water an atheist who does exactly what you seem to have missed. I think you would enjoy listening to it.
http://www.firstbaptistscottcity.com/saltandlight/index.html
God Bless
Howard
http://www.abortionfacts.com/parsing_the_arguments/parsing_the_arguments.asp
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Howie,
your saying that I am inconsistant with my own world view because I argue for pro life without saying it comes from Gods law. This is like saying Gods law has no purpose and the only reason we should be pro life is because God said so. The fact is Gods law is as it is because it has purpose and reason. So you can reach morality without using God. A society that has risen and fallen without ever hearing about Jesus or God will most likely still call murder illegal. Dont just say i am being inconsistant. Show me the where exactly am I being inconsistant. It is the pro choicers that are inconsistant with their world view. On one hand they believe murder is wrong, on the other murder of a baby is OK. That is being inconsistant. But because I point out their inconsistancy without using God, you say I am inconsistant.
If a society lived by the rule "If you dont like it done to you than don't do it to someone else". This would cover murder, rape, theft, pride and so on. The definition of morality is what the majority thinks is right. Some tribe in South America that never came in contact with the outside world, will still have morality. It may differ in certain points like sexuality or whether or not to wear clothes but it will still have a base morality.
You say Without arguing gods law I could not defeat the scientific or philisophic community in debate over the subject. Your wrong. Since I have written this blog I have already debated with a handful of people at work. I have found it most easy to beat them just using simple logic. Gods law uses simple logic. His law benificial to us in every way. Thats why it can be argued without ever mentioning his name. It is also the only way you can have credibility. It is unfortunite, but true. Had I written this blog saying God doesn't want us to have abortions. People wouldn't even read through it dismissing me as a Jesus freak. Although I am one, You must argue from logic only or you wont be heard. Don't worry Gods law has the logic to win every time.
"“The fact is Gods law is as it is because it has purpose and reason. So you can reach morality without using God.”
You seem to have missed my point. I am speaking about worldviews. I agree that you can use the laws of Logic, but even in the above sentence, it is ASSUMED that there is a God and it is His law we are trying to determine. So how do you reach God’s law without assuming there is a God?
“A society that has risen and fallen without ever hearing about Jesus or God will most likely still call murder illegal. Dont just say i am being inconsistant. Show me the where exactly am I being inconsistant.”
I agree with the truth that men everywhere know morality. I did show where you were inconsistent. You simply misunderstood what I said. I am saying that you can not assume the humanistic assumptions (which says there is no God or moral absolutes) and then tell the humanist he is wrong.
You can however show the humanist is wrong when he borrows from the Christian worldview and says we are wrong. He often does this without realizing it. For instance, an atheist might say the holocaust was wrong. But how can he say it is wrong. This is where you are able to demonstrate with the laws of logic that they are wrong and inconsistent.
“Had I written this blog saying God doesn't want us to have abortions. People wouldn't even read through it dismissing me as a Jesus freak. Although I am one, You must argue from logic only or you wont be heard. Don't worry Gods law has the logic to win every time.”
Again you missed my intention. Laws of Logic assume that God exists, therefore morality does too. So I agree that you can use “natural law” to argue for right and wrong, but that still assumes the Christian worldview.
“The definition of morality is what the majority thinks is right.”
No, it isn’t. That is the relativists worldview, not yours. Truth is truth whether the majority says so or not. Might does not make right. But then again, I am assuming the Christian worldview in that statement of truth, which is my whole point.
Keep up the debating with your friends though. You are right in what you are saying as a whole.
God Bless
Howard
Your saying that unless I argue from a Christian point view I can't come up with the conclusion that abortion is wrong. That I have come to a conclusion of human worth based on a Christian point of view. Its as if someone cant be pro life unless they are Christian, or they can't know the value of human life unless they are Christian, Or at least they cant make any valid points about pro life unless they are Christian. Is this not your point? If not what is it?
"Your saying that unless I argue from a Christian point view I can't come up with the conclusion that abortion is wrong."
I am saying that you are correct that you may use the Laws of Logic and other forms of argument to refute your opponents view.
I am simply saying that in order to do so, you are borrowing from the Christian worldview. There is nothing wrong with that. When you show your opponents to be wrong, you are really making them contradict their own worldview by going to your worldview.
The problem is that your opponents worldview will not work, so they borrow from yours when it is convenient. You are simply pointing this out to them.
"Its as if someone cant be pro life unless they are Christian, or they can't know the value of human life unless they are Christian, Or at least they cant make any valid points about pro life unless they are Christian. Is this not your point? If not what is it?"
All men know the truth, but they surpress it. They invent other worldviews and assumptions, but those worldviews and assumption cannot explain the Laws of Logic and morality and ect.. Only the Christian worldview is consistent and able to explain the world around us so. Therefore, when you use the Laws of Logic, you do not have to be a Christian by any means, but you must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to make man's systems work at all.
To put it another way, it is only the Christian worldview and assumptions that explain why men who have never heard of Christianity still "know" about morality. Any other system fails to explain this.
God Bless
Howard
By arguing that abortion is wrong, I am borrowing from a Christian world view? Why am I not borrowing from a Jewish world view or a Musleum world view? I never said anything that has anything to do with Christianity.
By arguing that abortion is wrong, I am borrowing from a Christian world view? Why am I not borrowing from a Jewish world view or a Musleum world view?
"I never said anything that has anything to do with Christianity."
Exactly my point. Nobody ever does. Most of the time we borrow from the Christian worldview without ever realizing it. It is only the Christian worldview that explain the reality around us. The rreason is simple. God created the world, therefore God can explain it.
"Why am I not borrowing from a Jewish world view or a Musleum world view?"
Great question. As for Islam, it is really just a "group" that broke from Christianity. So it is really a non-Christian cult surrounding Mohammed's perverted understanding of and rejection of the Scriptures.
As for the Jews, well, I think you know the answer to that. We are of the same historical backround. They have only rejected the One who gave it to them when He came in the flesh.
God Bless
Howard
Do you believe it should be the law that people should be Christian? I wouldn't think so. But you do believe that abortion should be against the law, so do I. So you have to be able to say why abortion is wrong without using Christianity. I'm not saying Christianity can't teach us why abortion is wrong, of course it can. It can teach us morals. The government operates from an athiest point of view. As long as were saying "Jesus says this" or "God says not to do that" people will not hear you. Right or wrong this is how it is. Once you say the words "Gods law" to a politician or almost any one else for that matter, they will automaticly discredit you. If you want to make any difference in how others think, you have to expain why Gods law is as it is. Once you leave Kansas and your out of the bible belt, your dealing with mostly ungodly liberals. Inside they still know what is right and wrong, but they feel their liberation when the can make something wrong into something right. If you can logically set them strait, then their liberation comes crashing down around them.
"Once you say the words "Gods law" to a politician or almost any one else for that matter, they will automaticly discredit you. If you want to make any difference in how others think, you have to expain why Gods law is as it is."
I agree.
"Inside they still know what is right and wrong, but they feel their liberation when the can make something wrong into something right. If you can logically set them strait, then their liberation comes crashing down around them."
I agree.
" Do you believe it should be the law that people should be Christian?"
Have I given any reason to think so? I am a Baptist, therefore I believe in the historical meaning of separation of church and state.
On the other hand, a nation who's God is the Lord, is blessed. If the Law is based on Christianity and the Bible, we will be a righteous nation, whether or not people personally are converted in heart.
The problem though is that our nation's system works best when men are free from sin and are not compelled to refrain from evil because of the Law, but because they have God's Grace keeping them from sin.
"The government operates from an athiest point of view. As long as were saying "Jesus says this" or "God says not to do that" people will not hear you. Right or wrong this is how it is."
I understand the frustration of having men reject you because they will not listen. You are right in saying that you can show their systems to "come crashing down" on them.
But if you do not offer the truth and a "worldview" that is consistent, you are just giving them reasons why they should abandon their system. You have not given them a reason to come to yours. Sooner or later, you have to reveal the foundation for your arguments.
I have found over the years "appeasement" just doesn't work either. Remember what Jesus taught, if they hate Jesus, they will hate you too.
Hi...I came across your blog from John and Billie Wright's site. I just wanted you to know that I will be praying for you and your family. I am a friend of Billie's and I know how hard and scary it was for her to have preemie twins. I am praying for a safe delivery for your wife, and for two healthly babies for you.
May God bless and keep you both.
Kendra Lynn
www.awordfitlyspoken.blogspot.com
www.pastorjamesroberts.blogspot.com
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